“If I were Saakashvili, I would have resigned. He has no right to be the President of the country after making so many mistakes and shedding so many tears and so much blood. If he takes this decision himself, our people, who are too generous, will forgive him many things he has done,” former President of Georgia Eduard Shevardnadze says in an interview with GT.

This interview with Eduard Shevardnadze was given to the Georgian edition of The Georgian Times on April 6, 2009 before the demonstrations began.

Q: Looking back at the 2003 Rose Revolution, can you please say whether the developments of November 2003 and now are in any ways similar or different? People are again anticipating a change of power…

A: This anticipation had a more aggressive character then. There were not so many political parties at that time but the people were more aggressive.

Q: But there is aggression in a large part of the population now, isn’t there?

A: We do not know yet. Let’s wait until April 9 and see how many people take to the streets and how the parties behave. Everybody has laid out their demands on paper but they may not behave in the way they say they will when it comes to action. There may be splits within the opposition, which although it looks rather consolidated today may not appear so soon.

Q: Both the Government and opposition are warning that events may take a more radical turn. What will happen if the opposition does not compromise and there is no chance of dialogue?

A:  I can only give advice. Forecasts do not usually come true in such situations. My advice is that the President should listen to the majority of the population and the opposition parties at least now and step down.

This is my advice for him and his people. It’s better if the President makes this decision on his own, taking into consideration the public mood and the position of the political parties.

Q: Given President Saakashvili’s character and actions – the way he once responded to public protests – do you really believe that he might follow your example and quit?

A: I am not demanding that anyone follow my example. I resigned at that time to avoid bloodshed. Our President has made fatal mistakes several times, beginning on November 7 2007, but the biggest one was the attack on Tskhinvali. It really created a lot of casualties. A number of districts, including Gori, were destroyed. If I were him, I would certainly think of these things and also of what may follow the April 9 demonstrations.

Q: Some believe that Saakashvili may be thinking about quitting because of November 7 and the August war but his circle is not allowing him to. Do you think this is possible?

A: Saakashvili is not a man who would listen to his circle and not resign just because the people in his team do not want him to. He is the key decision maker.

Q: Similar things were said about you, that you were a hostage of your team before you made the decision to resign, were they not?

A: I have never been a hostage of my team. I am proud to have taken the decision which prevented bloodshed. Do you remember when I went down to meet the demonstrators?

Q: Yes, you went to speak to the people in November 2003 but you were met with aggression. Will Saakashvili be able to meet the demonstrators?

A: One of the biggest mistakes made by President Saakashvili is that when people have gathered he has not gone down and talked to them. There were just 80 people at the first November 2007 rallies, some just demanding jobs and salaries. When 80 people gather, you should just go and talk to them. Then came the second wave, and 200-300 people came in the third one. In none of these cases did he show enough wisdom, experience and bravery – I do not even know what words to use – to come to the demonstrators and express his view. If he behaves the same way again we should not expect anything good in the future.

Q: What resources can Saakashvili use to maintain power and do you think he will use force against the demonstrators?

A: The Army, Police, Governors and his Parliament are his resources. I do not have evidence and cannot say exactly, but reports say that the Police will not take up arms and the Army will not fight against its own people and the administrations in the regions will stand with the people. These are just speculations and quite the contrary may happen. We cannot rule out that the Police and Army will fight against the people.

Q: What does April 9 mean to you? As has been noted before you wanted this day to remain the day of mourning in the history of Georgia and therefore did not recognize April 9, 1991 when Georgia declared independence...

A: April 9 is indeed a day of mourning for me. It saw a violent dispersal of a demonstration, assassinations, arrests, woundings, gas poisonings. I would not have chosen this day [on which to hold the rally]. It is not a big mistake but perhaps the opposition believes people will go to Parliament on April 9 anyway and the event will thus draw more demonstrators. But those who come to pay tribute to the April 9 victims are not necasarily siding with the opposition. Friends, relatives and ordinary people who remember April 9 usually come on this day.

Q: Are you going to the protest rally on April 9?

A: I do not usually attend demonstrations and rallies.

Q: I mean to the memorial to the April 9 tragedy?

A: No, I am not. I was planning to erect a monument commemorating April 9. Then they built something but it is not a statue. I went there once but will not any more.

Q: How realistic is another invasion by Russia? The Government often warns about the threat of this.

A: I don’t rule it out but I think this is very unlikely to happen. Russia has its own problems: it is facing deep economic and political crisis and Russia does not have the time for Georgia or anyone else now. It has already got what it wanted. Russia declared the independence of Abkhazia and the so-called South Ossetia. But it is not granting real independence to them. It is simply disguising its invasion. Many Abkhaz and Ossetians are now coming to their senses and saying that they would have been better off staying with Georgia.

Q: Members of the Government are saying that Russia wants to overthrow the Georgian Government again in the way it did at the beginning of the 90s. What similarities do you see with those events?

A: The Russians do not hide this. Medvedev said recently that he would not talk to Saakashvili. But Medvedev is not alone. He might be expressing the opinion of many others. In general we, Europe and the US all know that Russia is aggressively minded towards Saakashvili.

Q: You have mentioned several times that you gave authority to Mikheil Saakashvili and Zurab Zhvania on a plate… Today they say that Saakashvili wants to leave but only if he gets a security guarantee. Who is the person Saakashvili can deliver authority to while remaining safe in return?

A: I do not know whether Saakashvili will appoint his own successor or not. But the most important thing is that if I were Saakashvili I would have resigned. He has no right to be the President of the country after making so many mistakes and shedding so many tears and so much blood. If he takes this decision himself, our people, who are too generous, will forgive him many things he has done.

Q: Do the opposition have the resources to replace Saakashvili and prevent chaos afterwards? Is there somebody who can take on this responsibility?

A: If the President resigns and elections are appointed, all opposition parties and representatives of the opposition will have to get involved in this process and the people will decide who the strongest is among them.

Q: The opposition declare that due to the incorrect politics of Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia appears to be in complete international isolation. Is that true or is the opposition exaggerating?

A: Georgia is not in total international isolation. You must remember that after the Tskhinvali developments, Europe and the USA offered their support to Georgia, and today they are criticizing Russia for its acts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I must admit that Russia committed a fatal error when it recognized Abkhazian and South Ossetian independence. It set a precedent. Russia needs these countries just so that it can build military basis there, though it is obvious that small ethnic groups in Russia may also struggle for their independence.

Are there more Chechens than Abkhaz? Of course there are. Dagestan, with 4.5 million people, is bigger too. It also has an outlet to the Caspian Sea. There is also Ingushetia, a rather strong republic. 100 million tonnes of oil is being extracted in Tatria. Bashkiria is also quite strong and I have been informed that moves to gain independence are already being taken there.

Q: NATO has once again demanded that Russia reverse its decision to recognize the Georgian regions. Is this possible?

A: The election campaign was still in progress in the USA when I said Obama would win, despite McCain being leader at the beginning of August. A McCain Presidency would not have be bad for Georgia either. I sent a letter to Barack Obama at the time regarding global threats. Obama’s present announcements are of considerable importance for his allies and hopeful for us I think. Europe should take into account what Obama says.

Q: As for April 9, who are things likely to develop? What levers do the opposition possess for achieving actual change? Or do you have a “recipe” you can offer them which would help them achieve their goals?

A: Everything depends on the President’s behaviour. It is obvious that he is not ready to resign. He offers the opposition dialogue and discussion of specific issues, but discussion of these issues is already long overdue and they are not the issues to be discussed nowadays.

Q: In November 2003, did you think that Saakashvili might also one day have to leave due to public protest or revolution?

A: I was concerned about just one issue, not to cause bloodshed. In my book I described in detail the circumstances and developments of those days and how I made the decision to resign. I received a letter from George Bush saying that I made the only proper decision. My achievements were listed in the letter, which referred to the unification of Germany, the abolition of nuclear armaments, settling the relations with the USA, etc. At the end Bush wrote: your decision to resign instead of using military forces in the Tbilisi streets is a worthy end to your remarkable career! Your experience and age helped you in making this decision. Saakashvili is young and may be he cannot imagine what he could do after resignation.

I was not old then… This was not the first instance when I had resigned. Remember September 14, 1993? I made the decision on an emotional basis mainly and I don’t regret it even today, although thousands of people gathered on Rustaveli Avenue and proved that they did not want Shevardnadze to resign.

Q: Today, when you recall the developments of 2003, do you say that in the person of Saakashvili the people received what they deserve?

A: No, I don’t think so. At that time I thought that I had kept my country from bloodshed by my resignation. By the way, the murder of Zurab Zhvania was a great loss for the Georgian people.

Q: Do you say that it was murder?

A: Maybe it was a murder, as asphyxiation was not proved. It was a murder, gassing, poisoning or something else equally terrible. If Zhvania were alive, the November developments would not have happened and we would not have gone into Tskhinvali either.

Q: Burjanadze also says that if she had been Speaker of Parliament at that time they would not have entered Tskhinvali. Do you think this is so?

A: No, lots of terrible things happened while Burjanadze was Speaker of the Georgian Parliament. Zhvania was a very different personality to Burjanadze.

Q: It seems you are more offended by Burjanadze…?

A: No, no, that is not true. I can shake hands and hug her if she comes here any time.

Q: Did you think that Saakashvili would make so many mistakes? The Georgian nation and international society were expecting more from him.

A: No, I could not have imagined it. I am distinguished from Saakashvili and many other Presidents by one feature – I never run away from people who have negative and aggressive attitudes to me. I met people during the Mukhrovani riot when they were planning my liquidation. I went to them, met the head of the battalion, invited the rest of rebels and talked to them. We discussed many things, agreed on different issues and I went home. You should not be afraid and you should be able to sacrifice if necessary. How has the native language survived? One person sacrificed himself for that.

Q: It is rumoured that on April 9 Saakashvili will run from Tbilisi and stay in Batumi, at the Bobokvati residence.

A: I don’t think so. This is nonsense as departure for Bobokvati would be the same as resignation.

Q: They say that after November 7, 2007 Saakashvili made the decision to resign temporarily under the influence of the US Administration. If he breaks up the meeting on April 9 in order to preserve his authority, will he be forced to resign permanently?

A: I don’t think so. But unfortunately or fortunately all the world, and Americans among them, knows who is who today. If the situation complicates, I don’t think that the new President and administration of the USA, whose opinion is considerable and important, will support Saakashvili.

Q: You still think that Saakashvili will have to resign?

A: After so many tears and so much blood and misfortune you have no moral right to remain the President of the country. I wish him everything good as he has been good to me and I appreciate him for that. The time will come when I will invite him to visit me and we will drink a cup of wine together.

Q: What do you mean by “good”? Do you mean the guarantee of inviolability and the right to live in the Krtsanisi residence?

A: I did not ask for anything else. They appointed a security guard for me. By the way, when he came out of the meeting, he said “the President was courageous enough and made this decision, he resigned by his own will and we will do everything for his security.” I don’t have many enemies and I did not ask him for security guards but Saakashvili did this of his own free will. This house where I live, belongs to the state, it has not been privatized, I have not purchased it and I don’t pay the bills either.

Q: What do you suppose Saakashvili’s fate will be after his resignation?

A: As I mentioned above, the Georgian people are kind and generous and if Saakashvili resigns, people will appreciate it. He will remain a citizen of Georgia. He is a lawyer and he can work as an advocate or in some particular position. But he should not be the President of the country any more. Moreover, as you are well aware, he did not win the last election in Tbilisi. He got votes in regions and won with just 53%.

Q: What is your advice for both sides and society before April 9?

A: What can I advise the opposition is that they should stay together, act agreeably and struggle for their goals.

As for the President, as I have already mentioned, the only advice I have for Saakashvili is that he should resign and not let anyone repeat the war and bloodshed we have seen in Georgia.

People should support the force which always tells the truth and fights for justice. 200 or 300, 000 people gathered after the November developments and not a window was broken. We, the Georgian people, are too emotional and sometimes aggressive in expressing our emotions. But those developments once again proved that the Georgian people are wise, prudent and modest.